CY's at the Mystic Show?

[James McMullen]

There are some pictures of a couple of Caledonia Yawls at the Mystic Wooden Boat show that were posted on the Wooden Boat Forum, including Kenjamin's extremely modified Xena, and a 7-strake CY named Patina. Patina appears to have cast bronze knees! Lots of other pretty boats there too:

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/u ... hp?t=66900


Kenjamin, you've got to tell us, how is your experiment coming along? Is it working out like you'd hoped?

[James McMullen]

Okay, here's some pictures cheerfully stolen from the Wooden Boat site:

Patina and her cast bronze knees:


I like most things about this boat except for how the tiller is on the 'wrong' side
(I'd have to shift 'er over to starboard for me to be able to drive)


The vertical reinforcement member of the for'd partner thwart looks like a great idea.


And here's the legendary Xena with her infamous sickle-shaped mast. . .


And with sail hoisted: !



And here's my favorite boat from the whole show. . . . .you wanna talk about minimalist?

[kenjamin]

James,

Totally awesome trip!!! Met Phil Bolger, showed him a model of a double dory catamaran I built over twenty years ago, and he said, "I like it." That was the best part but Sunday morning early I finally worked up enough courage to sail Xena. She was incredible!!! Points to windward like you wouldn't believe! I'm still picking epoxy out of my hair from slapping together the carbon/kevlar bamboo boom but it worked great too! I injured my back stepping the mast the night before we left Florida because I hung it up in the oak tree in my front yard and the oak was stronger than me. Something came loose in my back and I struggled all weekend with the problem. Also injured my ribs reaching into the boat to grab something so I was hurting front and back pretty severely. So for two days I sat there on Xena explaining to everyone that I hadn't actually sailed her yet but I was pretty sure she would do alright because my prototype had worked so well. Saturday night my buddy who made the trip with me (when my wife backed out) said that the only thing that could have made the trip better was to actually go sailing on one of the boats. 5 a.m. Sunday morning I decided to set sail on Xena – injured and with no insurance if we hit anything. They wanted amost $1000 for event insurance and I'm not a company so there was no company insurance. But anyway at about 7 a.m. we were at the gate at Mystic and the intercom voice said "we're not open yet!" I explained the occasion and the guy came and let us in. There was a steady 15 mph breeze and the temperature was about 60° F – just perfect!!! I'm at the helm pointing to windward for the first time and Dennis Fagen (my singing buddy, not my fishin' buddy) asked, "How's your back doing?" The pain had been replaced by adreneline. I was floating and Xena was bookin'!!! Here's some pics. Met a guy at lunch Sunday that got a bunch of her sailing that he took from shore but haven't gotten them yet. There might be a follow up article in Wooden Boat Magazine. Ed took Dennis and I for a sail on Patina – what a beautiful boat that is!! I called it the "immaculate conception" and it was but she didn't point as well as Xena. I think there's something to this bird wing mast of mine.

[Garth]

Well, that's pretty cool kenjamin! I know I poo-poo-ed some of your innovations, but it looks, from the photos, like you did a first rate job building your mast and rig and I'm glad to hear that she sails well! The hull looks great as well - I'm looking forward to seeing more photos when she's done. Are you sitting at the helm were the aft deck will go? That's what it looks like.

Anyway, congrats on showing Xena at Mystic. I wish I had been able to attend (with or without Goldberry) but another trip got in the way. Ah well.

Cheers,
Garth

[kenjamin]

Hey Garth,

There was to be a bamboo seat where I was sitting at the helm but that was something else that didn't get done. Plan for bamboo mats to cover the midship wells but again not enough time. Hoisted the working jib but fairleads were in the wrong places. Had just mounted them where there was enough "meat" to hold the screws but the location was all wrong. Still plenty of work to do. Still want to do a mizzen and a removable bow sprit in addition to new deeper and narrower daggerboard and also a kick up rudder in place of the solid oak slabs that I slapped together in one afternoon. Work in progress but she's gonna be a rocket when I'm finished. Maybe next year I can return with the bamboo seats and her new go fast toys like the big genoa that's still in the Sailrite bag waiting to be sewn. But golly gee I'm having fun!!!

Thanks for showing an interest. Maybe see you next year.

[James McMullen]

Congratulations on your launch, Comrade! There's nothing more gratifying than going for a sail in a boat you built with your own hands. I'm glad that you're satisfied with it, since your own opinion is the only one that really matters.

Now go get them fish!

[kenjamin]

Hey James,

Thanks for the congrats. Unfortunately, I think having one's opinion being the only one that matters only applies if you are independently wealthy. I would like to convince someone else on the planet that's it's a good enough idea to go into a mass production of my funky masts. That way I may realize a small monthly check when we sell the licensing rights – important to a guy looking at retirement from a graphics job with the state.

First I plan to flood Wooden Boat Publications with glossy color photographs in hopes of getting a follow up article on Xena. I met a Florida Gator at lunch on Sunday and he showed me (on his camera) some great pictures he took from shore of Xena sailing. I may have to root for the Gators at the next big FSU/Florida game to get the pictures but sometimes you do what you have to. Go Gators!!! I'll post them when I get them.

I also want to work with the Engineering Department here at FSU to devise a scheme for mass production with marine foam core and carbon fiber skin – tricky to say the least. I may have some good connections with FSU's Head of Reaserch so that may help.

As for the fish, they haven't got a chance!!!

[James McMullen]

Kenjamin, I've tried to be supportive about your boat. . . . .

. . .but you've got serious delusions of grandeur if you think you've just invented the new ultimate sailing rig with that curvy mast! One test sail in "just perfect" conditions does not answer all of the questions and issues that remain with this experimental rig before somebody starts mass producing them! And writing you royalty checks?!? There are a whole bunch of things about this rig in contrast to the conventional CY rig that have yet to be answered to my satisfaction before I could allow that this is anything other than an idiosyncratic, custom answer to your personal requirements of a) keeping your stowed mast out of the way of your fishing buddy and b) being unconventional. I maintain that the original and conventional CY rig is simply better and certainly more user friendly than your custom rig--even, or in fact especially, for a boat that is going to regularly hoist and strike her rig while afloat.

Mast structure:
How much heavier is that complex and noticably taller mast than a simple straight birdsmouth spar? How much harder is it to step in a seaway while afloat, rather than at the dock, than that shorter, lighter mast? When you pick up the curved mast doesn't it want to rotate in your hands to put the unbalanced, heavier side down? A straight spar doesn't do that. How much longer did it take to build and how much more does it cost than the proven spar? How easy will it be to get a replacement if you break it? Isn't there a stress riser where the boom intersects the spar right where the curved section goes straight again, and how well will this hold up over time in other than "just perfect" conditions?

Mainsail issues:
The luff of the sail fits in a luff slot in the back of the mast--how easily does it slide up and down? Will it come down on its own, or do you have to pull it down past the curve? How long does it take to feed the luff up into the slot when hoisting sail? Is this something you can do with only your own two hands, or do you need one person to feed the luff while the other hauls on the halliard? (And then who is steering?) Is this something you can do while seated, keeping your weight down low and centered, or do you need to stand up to reach it? How well will this work when the conditions get rough, when the sail is flogging around partially hoisted. How much longer does it take to do all this than the literal 45 seconds it takes to haul up a lugsail, tighten the downhaul,and sheet home? Furthermore, how quick and easy is it to tie in a reef--and can you properly flatten your sail out when you do this? Will your sail come all the way down while you are fiddling with reef points and clew outhauls and such, or will it be mostly still up there, flogging in the wind and driving you to leeward. How easy is it to stow and unstow all this stuff-- your bundle of sail with its battens and little gunter yard, your boom, your curvy mast--and how long does it take to go from everything down in the boat to everything up and drawing? I guarantee it takes substantially longer than setting up the balance lug.

Jib issues:
Being able to change sizes of jibs can be useful to adapt for the conditions in larger boats--but going out all the way to the bow to change the tack isn't so friendly on a small boat. Two extra sheets to tangle up and stow--per jib--unless you're also going to change over the sheets when you change the jib--taking even longer to set up a sail change--and you'll still have to change your sheet leads for the different size sails. How well does your curved mast take the pressure from the jib's luff tension and how much will the luff sag off as the wind builds? Are you going to add backstays to counter this? Backstays also take a while to untangle and set up for a rig you are setting and striking regularly.

Performance issues:
You say that your boat pointed higher than Patina. This may be--though I'd like some independent verification of this. (Owner of the lovely Patina, where are you? Come post on our forum, please!) Were you actually sailing side by side, or is this your memory of first sailing in one and then the other? If you were sailing side by side, who was faster? Who was handier in stays? Who was first around that buoy? It is certainly possible that Patina did not point as high as Xena, she may not be set up optimally yet--she could have an inefficient CB shape, or sails that weren't cut right, or tweaked properly. It could be that her helmsman was relatively new to sailing, or to the rig itself. The thing is, I myself, and other performance oriented sailors with racing backgrounds and experience like our friend Boatmik have been able to get very good performance out of lug rigs, upwind and down. I can point as high in Rowan as any sloop with a jib set flying, and the windier it gets, the higher I'll point in proportion as that jib luff sags away. (Pinching super high isn't always the fastest way to get somewhere uphill, by the way--sometimes it is better to fall off a little bit to make up in increased boat speed what you lose in heading--but I digress.) Again, I would say that one sail in "just perfect" conditions doesn't tell you all that much about the performance of the rig overall unless you are going to restrict your sailing time to "just perfect" conditions.

Aesthetics:
Not my cup of tea--though I will be first to admit that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Kenjamin, I'm glad if your boat pleases you, but I think you are steering people down an errant path by promoting your rig over the conventional CY rigs for most people/most conditions. The ease of building and set-up and performance characteristics of the conventional rigs are tremendous. Yours is complicated and cumbersome and has yet to have sea trials in a wide range of conditions. I would love to see an evaluation of my questions and issues from an independent source, someone else with lots of sailing experience in small, open boats--but until they are resolved I must protest!

[kenjamin]

James,

I know you've tried to be supportive and for that I thank you. I too would like an objective judging body to determine advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure like anything else there are both.

The one thing I really got right was the luff groove and the slugs that slide in them. The luff groove is 1/2" Zurnpex equivalent and the slugs are 1/4" Zurnpex so I have pex pipe sliding inside pex pipe with enough difference in the two sizes to have a very slick system and much much lighter than pvc pipe. She strikes under her own weight if the mast is allowed to rotate or if the boat is headed up and there is no spar heavy enough to do any damage if dropped by accident. The luff groove pipe was sleeved in fiberglass/epoxy right before the two machined halves of the mast were put together so it is stuck well to the wood. The halyard tunnels were coated with epoxy when the halves were glued together also. The halyard tunnels were cleared of excess epoxy using a hundred or so knots (half hitches) in parachute cord – worked great!

The one thing you've got me on for sure is that it was extremely labor intensive and very few people on the planet will want to pay me to work a month or so producing one of sitka spruce like mine. I got a lot of comments on the mast exclaiming that it was a "work of art" and it really did turn out pretty. I think it is maybe a little overbuilt for crusing around the bay but not for enduring a hard blow far out in the Gulf of Mexico. But James, I don't really see it as a replacement rig for a classic boat like the Caledonia Yawl but rather as a basis for a completely different fiberglass production boat and the mast would be foam cored and carbon-fiber skinned so it could be mass produced like the hull.

It definitely handles differently than a straight mast. It does want to rotate to the heaviest side down but you just let it. After that you can set it on your shoulder and walk around with it without using your hands. I use the daggerboard slot to contain the heavy end and get the thing vertical and also the reverse. Seems to work just fine as long as you don't get it tangled in some trees in your front yard.

It may end up being used in just a specialized application for fish crazed fishermen like myself but I can envision a mass production model which would be lighter and easier to step that could help sell a lot of plastic boats shaped especially for its curvature. It could be a beautiful marriage between a performance sailboat and a motor launch BUT ONE THING'S FOR SURE, in plastic it would not have the soul of a Patina or even a Xena. For that, there's no substitute for blood, sweat, tears and sawdust with maybe a little epoxy thrown in to keep her stuck together.

As always, I appreciate your comments. Give me a few more months to sort things out that I still want to do. I'd like a mizzen mast because I do want the parking ability of the yawl rig. The mizzen sail is, in fact, already sewn and waiting. I also want a removeable bow sprit so in really light conditions I could set the working jib in front of the genoa and balance with the mizzen. I made provision in my mast for stays if I need them and will probably install them if I ever get Xena properly outfitted to harvest Gulf grouper 12 or so miles out on a spring or fall day when a big cold front can give predicably good weather for a day or two.

I'll try not to suffer from delusions of granduer and thanks for keeping me in touch with reality but I am still floating a little bit from Xena's unforgettable maiden voyage at Mystic.

[nwhitman]

The Woodenboat show at Mystic was fantastic! Mystic Seaport is the ideal venue for the show. There is plenty of room in the water and ashore. The facility is designed to accommodate a crowd, and the Mystic collection right there to compare with the showboats. For wooden boats (especially traditional) Mystic is Mecca. N. G. Herreshoff’s own boat Alerion III is here on display as are dozens of others. At Mystic whaleboats are setup and demonstrated. I include some view of this - as one way to row a double ender. If you don’t see the boat you are looking for on display there are 400 or so in storage and with an appointment they can be studied.


The Caledonia Yawls at the show were a study in contrast.

First, from Two Daughters Boatworks was Geoff Kerr’s perennial grey on grey unadulterated boat. This boat has been used and it shows. Geoff sails his boat masterfully and often at the show demonstrating how maneuverable the CY can be. He has a lot of experience building and sailing – he teaches CY workshop at Woodboat School.






Next was a beautifully executed and finished seven straker – Patina – by Segan Yachts. The first by this company she is finished completely bright inside. I’m pretty sure hardware is by J.M. Reineck & Son. Design is mostly by the plans. There is no floatation or ballast at this time. They told me she sails best with a bunch of people aboard. She is being marketed as “the ultimate picnic craft”. Patina is a very handsome boat.

There were however several attributes that stuck out as undesirable to me. First all that varnish can only translate into a maintenance headache. That goes double for the rail and rub rail. Don't these guys run into things or lay against piers? I do! Varnish may sell boats but it can’t possibly last. One feature that sends a shiver down my spine is the finger wide space between the floorboards and in the side benches. I often sail barefoot and boy would it ruin your day to jamb a finger or toe in those gaps. Why the space? A quarter inch or even less will keep the water moving toward the bilge. This is a design flaw. Don’t take my word for it. While at Mystic go to the boat sheds and see how the floor boards are set up on time tested classics – you won’t see this kind of spacing.

The kicker on Patina was the price. When I asked, a spreadsheet was produced at the bottom of which was a number I was too stunned to remember! It was more the double the price of a new Herreshoff 12 (which is around 25 grand)! First I thought they were goofing on me and I said “but that is twice the price of …”. To which they showed me on the sheet that there were a zillion hours getting that finish, times so much per hour and there is your price. More delusion.






Finally there was Xena. I don’t count this as a CY. There was no mizzen (that is the Y part), and the hull is so changed inside and out that the C part has long since gone by the board. Xena could be considered a prototype – an unfinished, untested floating experiment.

Xena was out of place at Mystic.

[Garycbet]

works dosen't work. who cares.

Looks very cool to me.

[kenjamin]

Xena is unfinished but not untested. You only have to scroll up this thread to see her sails in action. Soon she will have a mizzen and become an official yawl. Iain Oughtred, the designer of the Caledonia Yawl, has been very supportive of my experimental fishing rig that stores out of the way for fishing. I value his opinion and he said,"Have fun!" and I am doing just that.

If you really study all the boats at Mystic, you will find numerous fishing and whaling boats that have a workboat finish like Xena's. It was humorous, however, to be placed between a $100,000 runabout and a $50,000? Caledonia Yawl at the show. I would like to point out that neither one of those boats had a quite beautiful storable mast considered by many an observer to be "a work of art." There were many at the show that thoroughly enjoyed learning the story of Xena's unusual mast and I had a wonderful time explaining it to them. Xena's maiden voyage at Mystic Seaport Sunday morning was magical especially going to windward!!!

[nwhitman]

There is all the difference in the world between a workboat finish and sloppyness. Name one boat at Mystic - of all 500 or so - with epoxy literally dripping from the spars. I'm glad your having fun.

[kenjamin]

If you had seen the punch list of things to do before the show you would know that I was lucky to have any boom at all – even one made in an hour. We were still sewing sails at 2 a.m. the morning we left Florida for the show. My boss gave me an extra week of vacation to attend the show and publicize FSU's patent pending mast so I wasn't about to miss out on that because of a drippy boom. Even though I wasn't completely as ready as I would have liked to have been, I was very happy to be there and meet Phil Bolger and talk sailing with Dudley Dix and others. By the way, the bamboo boom sleeved in carbon/kevlar/epoxy with the leather covered oak yoke worked great – very stiff and light and gentle on my nicely finished mast but you are right, I do need to figure out a way to make them prettier. I don't want to scare the fish.

[James McMullen]

They're asking $50 grand for Patina?!? . . . . . .oh. . .my. . . .Ghod!



I hereby offer and undertake to build a Caledonia Yawl every bit as pretty as Patina for anyone who asks for a mere $40 thousand dollars---that's a ten thousand dollar savings right there! How could anyone refuse?

(And here I thought that Kenjamin's boat was the one least rooted in reality there at that dock. . . .)

I think that Geoff Kerr's well-used and much-loved own boat is actually more attractive than any over-varnished and under-utilised status-symbol showpiece. These boats are supposed to get oyster shell scratches on the keel and seaweed strands in the bilge. That is when they truly fulfill their nature! I hope Patina will eventually go to someone who will actually sail her--though if someone actually pays that price I suppose I could understand if they simply left her in a hermetically sealed, nitrogen atmosphere case.

Mr Whitman is absolutely right about the proper spacing for floorboards. I almost always sail barefoot myself, and the gap spacing on Patina looks like a toe dislocation waiting to happen.